China is much more powerful than Australia and no amount of criticism from us will change this. In a fight with China, we must lose. Calm analysis must replace jingoistic hot air. Why are they really attacking us and what can we do about it now?
China’s Twitter photoshop was presumably seen by the Chinese as a cartoon rather than pretending it was real. Whether it was any worse than Charlie Hebdo’s cartoon about the Prophet Mohammed is a moot point but both were in very bad taste and had a negative effect on those the cartoon satirised.
Australian politicians and media have responded predictably with domestically oriented hysteria about bullying and how we will stand up to protect our sovereignty. Just how we will do this is not stated. Public support from the US and UK can only suggest that our sovereignty has already been handed over to others.
As a number of people have pointed out, Australia will inevitably be the loser in any conflict with China. We may not like this but we cannot pretend otherwise.
There is much to be criticised about China today but Australia has gone out of its way to unnecessarily annoy China. We started it with our ill-advised attempt to please Donald Trump by calling for an investigation into the origin of the COVID virus – something that was already known. We have also implemented a number of “national security” measures clearly directed against China and Chinese firms. We have harped on Chinese actions against Hong Kong and Xin Jiang but ignored equally bad actions by other countries.
Why focus on China? This is not to defend things China is doing that I and many others don’t like but did we really think China was going to take any notice of us? There are various versions of the perhaps apocryphal newspaper headline:” The Launceston Examiner warns Mr Hitler” and a similar one about the Kaiser but the message is relevant. The USA will support us verbally and encourage us to support American attempts to turn back the Chinese tide but that is all.
Unlike far too many journalists and politicians with little knowledge of the world outside Australia, I leave it to others better qualified to analyse Chinese motives and possible avenues of reconciliation. The only thing that seems important and obvious to me is China’s humiliation at the hands of those who now criticise its human rights record.
If I were Chinese, I would not take these criticisms seriously and it looks like the Chinese don’t. I used to teach University courses in Intercultural Communication where one of the basic lessons is that, like it or not, you must understand the culture of the others and not interpret what they say or do in terms of your own culture. Far too many commentators on China would have failed the course.
The basic problem then is clear. What are we going to do about it? What can we do that will have any effect on China? What are their aims? It is no use blaming China and telling them they are wrong because they don’t seem to care. Nor should we kid ourselves that they need us as much as we need them.
Yes, it would be nice if China tried to understand us and our culture but powerful empires are not noted for being kind to the weak. Perhaps China is a bully but bullies succeed if they are more powerful than the bullied and China is much more powerful than us. I don’t pretend to have the answers but we need realistic analysis from Australians who understand China and less mindless chest-thumping.
We need less hot air and more cold reason.
Cavan Hogue is a former diplomat who has worked in Asia, Europe and the Americas as well as at the UN. He was Australian Ambassador to USSR and Russia, dually accredited to Ukraine. He also worked at ANU and Macquarie universities.
Comments
68 responses to “The elephant and the mouse”
To all the China Apologists at P&I:
Australia has survived this position before and we will do so again. China doesn’t need us and we can get by without them.
Go down to the chart:
https://www.crikey.com.au/2020/12/02/trade-relationship-dependence-china/
My friend in China send me Cavan’s article. I was suspicious the article. The author is not familiar to me. I did Google search and came into this website. It is very great to see some cool heads in Australia. When I first saw post Scott Morrison demanded China apology, I thought that the Chinese spokesperson twisted the fact. Then I did further study, SAS did kill two Children in Afghanistan. I was puzzled why Scotmoo was so furious. I live here over thirty years, maybe there is still a culture barrier. Just imagine how most Chinese could understand the issue. It is not nice thing to do in the normal circumstances. Now the two countries relations are in the deep ice cave.
As someone who is so well traveled in Asia and especially Seoul I find your complete lack of understanding about dealing with Chinese oppression perplexing and bordering on completely dishonest. Nationalized countries (South Korea, Taiwan, Japan) in SEA who have not bowed down to bullying and have been aware of Chinese subversion have carried on fine. Other developing nations that pursued asymmetric trade and ties with China have stagnated and are third world countries.
Oh, but the people in those countries that leveraged their social and political power to keep working with China? Their investment portfolios were secure, their pockets are full. They’ll happily tell the public that things are much better thanks to China, and that trying to take things back will lead to economic ruin.
Why should we willingly let ourselves be taken hostage?
Well said Cavan. The power of the political cartoon. Who will ever forget Petty and Viet Nam. My honours thesis was on Australian political cartoons 1960-69. Then as now they are important in shaping public opinion.
The Chinese achieved what they wanted and with the exception of Albanese most see Morrison for who he is.
We all recall Albo’s close realtionship with Ian MacDonald. Referred to by Bob Carr as Eddie Obeid’s pet crocodile. Albo was never the sharpest tool in the shed.
Austrlia’s got own human right things to worry about. Prior to the SAS issue, aboriginals got BHP blowed up their sacred place. also what has happened to Stolen generation? No PM has offcially offered apology until Kevin Rudd done so for ripping off aboriginal kids from their parents for over 70 years. Moreover the stolen generation or more generally “Aboroginal lives matter” is not an isolated racial discrimination issue, just a random pick, Ms. Pauline Hanson certainly is not a tolerent person to aboriginals either, we have a so-called multicultral and mutual respect society in Australia while allowing a very racial discriminating politician.
Back to the relationship between AU & CN, let’s face it, no country’s perfect including China and OZ, like it or not. However when it comes to the biliteral relationship, Rudd’s messages have been quite clear on either stolen generation, and the current diplomatic tension between two countries that talk through a “grown up” way and use diplomatic channels instead of confronting. Confronting? Theoritically yes but that’s would be one last measure in diplomacy. We could always find some way here or there to talk.
From my point of view, current non-Chinese politicians know/care little about certain ideological/cultural difference which is unfortunately as your article mentioned, not even Australian-born-Chinese as their educational background is still OZlised. Chinese tend to be very good at differentiating insiders and outsiders, for insiders that would be a different story.
One instance, Chinese culture is known as high-context and OZ is low-context. Standing in OZ’s shoes and judging China from an outsider’s perspective, someone would miss a hell of lot that is not said because of context and different story. Only comes when somesone is considered as one of the insiders and knows about the context, then it is a chance that he/she gets a better picture. For anyone that has some confusions of my saying, I would sincerely recommend working & living in mainland China for a considerable period of time, to actually see and live through by him/herself and make own judgement.
Just admit it.
You committed inexcusable war crimes in an extremely unhumane way in Afganistan.
It’s horrifying those soilders have done and are still doing!
Stop being hypocritic.
You are just a nobody-country, stop making yourself a laughing stock!
You are merely a slave country of your master USA!
Just look at US human rights, and you dare to criticize it? NO!
Here is a point that I haven’t seen elsewhere, though I don’t pretend no one else has thought of it.
Many commentators have rightly pointed out, as Cavan does, that all the power lies with China and, secondly, that it plays a long game. I think Australia can play a long game too. We are never going to be a strong power, but as the world changes through climate change, population pressure, water shortages and the like, food security is going to be ever more important. China can’t feed itself, and knows that, which is why it has bought a lot of Australian farmland. There will come a time when China DOES need Australia, and may be a little less ill-mannered. I may not live to see it, but my children might. China’s thuggishness is a foolish long-term strategy.
In the long term, Australia’s agricultural land will become more arid, and China’s neighbour, Siberia, more arable. Cooperation between China and Russia will help China to happily avoid difficult customers like Australia.
Ahem. Yes, good point. If they can cooperate, because Russia won’t like it any more than Australia does. But Australia will still enjoy particular advantages, such as comparative lack of pollution.
You still sound like someone don’t understand the current situation of China, China is far from your concept of a massive developing country with a fast growing poputation and worsening environment, that is India, not China. China has passed that stage long time ago, they don’t call themselves a developed country but they do have got the exact symptons of rich countries, one is that chinese birth rate is extremely low now even can be compared to Korea and Japan, and no it is not because something wrong in their socialism, the Chinese young people face the exact same problem like Korean and Japan (this is off the topic, won’t elaborate), and they are facing the issue of aging and shrinking population;
The other aspect is environmnet is not worsening in China, the impression of crowded high rise cage city, an image westeners are more familiar with when thinking about China, is actually Hongkong which has a much denser population than mainland cities, most mega cities in mainland like Shanghai, Shenzhen, Chongqing and Beijing are very spacious with advanced infrustructure because they have got very large outter suburb to expand, something HK doesn’t enjoy. And China is absolutely leading in the front of clean energy like electric cars
Finally you probably mistook the reason why China buys agricultural products from US and Australia, it’s not because they starve to death without it, you really think with that amount of land and working force, China can’t produce more agricultural products than Australia if they have to? They absolutely can sustain themselves in a war that’s for sure.
You really should give up on the thinking that China needs Australia more than Australia needs China, the steel and food we sell to China helps Chinese live better and develop faster for sure, but we are just ONE supplier of many, we are nowhere irreplaceable, and the stuff we sell is nowhere lifethreatening
Hi Kyle. My argument, which may well be wrong, is that China will EVENTUALLY want Australian goods again. I certainly never said – and don’t think – that China needs Australia MORE than Australia needs China. You may not have read my comments quite carefully enough.
One of the reasons China has been keen to invest in Australia over the past decade is food security; I think that is generally agreed. And it is a perfectly reasonable goal on that nation’s part. Nor did I say anything like China can’t produce more than Australia – it’s been pointed out that China is particularly fertile. But Australia has to feel 25 million people; China has to feed more than 50 times that number. Look how devastated it has been by swine fever, to take one example. And although you are right about the super cities, nevertheless China does face social and environmental problems.
My point is that though we have a lop-sided relationship in which China holds nearly all the cards, geopolitics changes.
Barney
I think that is a bit of wishful thinking. China has controlled its population and while it may suffer a bit I doubt it would be at a standstill such that it Australia is essential to it. As Richard points out China borders Siberia which will become more fertile as the earth warms and at the same time is relatively unpolluted.
Perhaps China and Russia in 50 years may once again be enemies but by that time Australia may face challenges from highly populated countries in our near north who need our resources – Indonesia, PNG and even Malaysia, Singapore or even India.
I suggest that a 5/10 year window is what Australia should be focusing on.
Rather than deploying his razor wit in calling out the Photoshop equivalent of cartoon in the Australian , our PM delivers an offensive lecture and the sort of demands used by the parents of four year olds. The approach simply escalates the problem. China is a great and rising power that we must trade and abide with. Imagine the leaders of the other great power being sent this sort of silly rant. I suspect that the Morrison “play” is appreciated in some dark corners of Australian politics, but FFS they are a minority. Memo to the PM: China is the big place north of Darwin with well over a billion people.
It seems to me that you are presenting too binary an alternative. There are many steps between servility and war. Australia does not have to choose either of those. We do need to seek other markets and trade and military alliances.
By the way, I think the quote that you and another columnist have mentioned is not about the Kaiser or Hitler.
It was a charming sentence in the Townsville Bulletin in 1914: “We have repeatedly warned the Tsar…”
My favourite is: ” This is what we know so far”
Barney
Of course we should have other markets but sadly it will be next to impossible to replace China in the near future. China has a huge population most of which are entering the middle class and keen on semi luxuries like wine, dairy products or beef which are our strengths. No other country in the short to medium term can replace that – India is suffering severe economic decline as a result of COVID as is Indonesia and neither have the rapidly expanding middle class for our products (India obviously does not want as much of our beef).
As for iron ore our major export, there is no immediate buyer engaging in such rapid industrial, military and infrastructure expansion.
The service industry “exports” eg tourism and education are obvious luxuries which China can well decline with little adverse effect.
Basically with the exception or iron ore China can say bye bye at least for the next 20 years.
As for our imports we are a minnow for China so they will not care much. I am not sure just which products we import from China are critical for Australia, but we can be certain that our alternatives will be much more expensive. Environmentally this may well be a net positive if we consume less but there will be a lot of economic disruption.
Janet, you are right about the size of the Chinese market, and it is also a fact that the Chinese people appreciate and trust Australian produce, whether wine, food or infant milk powder. But if the Chinese government decides it’s not importing from Australia, then the size of the market doesn’t matter.
I agree also that there will be economic disruption, the price we must pay for becoming so reliant on a single, totalitarian-run market with contempt for international treaties and trade.
I also think there will be a backlash against China by other countries, and signs of that are already appearing. China has not learnt how to be a good global citizen, and possibly does not care. Certainly this regime does not care – yet.
Unlike many posters here, I see no future in appeasing China. Bullies just lap it up and demand more. In particular, I can’t understand why so many posters want to deny the sufferings of the Uighurs, house-church Christians and other persecuted groups. Have we become a nation of Neville Chamberlains? Fortunately, I think not. Like the vast majority of Australians (apparently), I support the Government’s China policy. None of the insults and bullying have come from us, and we have been far more dignified and mature, I suggest. Obviously I differ from many here about calling for a COVID inquiry; we can agree it was unwise to go first, but I don’t think we did it at the behest of the Americans.
Barney
My problem with your attitude is that we are very happy to appease many other countries with much much worse or at least equivalent human rights abuses. Just take right now. We condemn China for its treatment of Uighers, but i guess you like others are happy to sell to India which has just done a take over of Muslim Kashmir, complete with lockdowns and total silences. Modi himself as Premier of Gujarat province facilitated the deadly race riots train massacres in 2002 or there abouts. The atrocities of Saudi Arabia to their own people and to the Yemeni are disgraceful.
My view is that if we take a human rights stance on China we MUST first adopt a similar stance towards our friends/allies, otherwise our words become meaningless and will have no moral authority. We are just seen as the mouthpiece of the USA.
Moreover the old proverb applies ie those who live in glass houses etc. Now our OWN civil rights record is not so charming that we can afford to be moralistic towards others. China has a population more that 40 times ours and they would need to have many more than 40 times the number of political prisoners locked up for us to be very morally superior. With Citizen K, Bernard Collaery and Assange, we should shut up unless we are sure that china has more than 120 dissidents locked up. They may do so but we need to be sure before we moralise.
Our own record of neglect of indigenous communities does not allow us to carry on to others about treatment of ethnic minorities. As to Hong Kong Isuggest that when the USA returns Guantanamo bay to Cuba (por gives it independence) then we can start chatting about China and Hong Kong. The legalities are rather similar.
this recent war crimes stuff is just the last straw. we cannot go around moralising to others, unless we really take a hard stand on these alleged crimes. at this stage i do not expect any significant action to bring about justice or to seriously reform the military culture. I hope I am wrong.
Janet, I hope you are wrong too. I think the early signs are good: we have carried out an apparrently thorough investigation that has led to criminal referrals, we have already apologised to Afghanistan, and we have been (relatively) transparent. Catch the UK, US or China behaving as well and I’d be really surprised.
My comments about the Uighurs have nothing to do with foreign policy for Australia, where your observations have considerable merit. It is purely domestic to this website, where commenters vary from the apparently deranged Godfree – who declares that Chinese democracy is much fairer than the West, that China’s court system is much juster, and that the Uighurs are the best-off Muslims in the world, all actual claims he has made on this website – to more ordinary posters who just deny it happens. Seeing as it clearly does happen, and we have large amounts of evidence that I have cited in previous threads, I am speculating about what motive could lead posters on P&I to deny it. Is it a form of self-loathing: the West is so appalling that China must be better? They are the mirror image of the fantasists who say the 2020 election was stolen from Trump by Chavez in 2013.
In regard to our iron ore exports, apparently Morrison and his clown show are betting that Chinese engineers wont be able to get the Sinandou rail project up and running within five years. PRC has just forgiven their debt of Guinea. As it did recently with Afghanistan. So the Morrison crowd has laid the worst bet in the world. Against Chinese rail and construction technology, the richest and biggest iron deposit in the world and contracts denominated in bilateral currency. But Hartcher reckons our boy is giving it to them over a cartoon. PRC is going to crash the Australian economy. It will be ugly.
Is there any point, Paul, where we should stand up for ourselves? That cartoon was a deliberated and calculated insult. I can just see your reaction if we’d drawn that about the Uighurs and posted it on a DFAT twitter account.
Is your position simply that might makes right, and therefore China can do as it wills (except against the US)? Or do moral issues and issues of national integrity have a role to play somewhere? At what point, for you, do we reach the somewhere? We don’t seem to have got there yet, in any case. Or is it just that your contempt for the Morrison government overwhelms every other consideration? You certainly tend to employ strong language about Morrison (which you have every right to do). I certainly didn’t vote for him, but I think he has read the national mood on this.
Barney i am in the bell lap of life. I was fortunate to visit PRC in 1978. A desperately poor country. I believe poverty, hunger and disadvantage are the greatest moral evils in life. We have seen the greatest poverty eradication success in world history in China. I have enormous respect for the Chinese and the Communist Party of China. I guess it all starts there with respect. So many Australians simply really have no respect for the PRC, the Chinese people and the Communist Party of China. Without respect we can go nowhere. Which is exactly where we are going at the moment except down. World geopolitics are in revolution. A new global power is emerging. It is China and led by Communists. The Anglo ascendancy’s in this country worst nightmare. Well i dont have those nightmares. If you believe respect is kow towing there really is no shared moral framework to resolve our current disasterous relationship with the next great world power. The country i live in (when i can return) has some of the poorest people on earth and has recently tilted to China. I pray that the Philippines will also drag itself out of poverty and disadvantage by finding its own unique path as China did. I think we all want a fairer and gentler world.
I was in China in 1991, where I was followed everywhere by two security people attached to me, though I have no Chinese and did not want to get anyone in trouble anyway. The security people were polite and friendly to me. I agree the Chinese accomplishment has been huge. Whether communism was essential to that, I can’t say. Think of the cultural revolution, or the great leap forward of 1958 which led to the deaths of 45 million. In the West we are a little more reluctant to break so many eggs. Singapore rose to an even higher standard of living over the same time. The Chinese are extremely industrious, and might just as well have managed this without communism.
But that is speculation; leave that aside. I do respect China, very much. What it seems we are arguing about is what respect consists of. I don’t believe China is interested in any efforts towards rapprochement by Australia, as it has shown by refusing to talk all year. If that’s the case, why humiliate ourselves by sucking up to a regime determined to reject us? We have – rightly – been infinitely politer in our language across the period – no references to China being the chewing gum on our soles, or the poor trash of Asia, unlike its rhetoric. I am in favour of good relations with China but not at any cost. Not for example, at the cost, of allowing Huawei into our infrastructure, or ignoring and allowing cyber espionage. It takes two to tango, and we’ve been standing lonely on the dance floor a long time.
At what point do you personally draw the line? Is there such a point?
I am of the Gough generation. The statement Gough made in his report of his 1971 visit to Mao should be the guiding line.
“I am now convinced that Australia has it in her power to play an independent role of immense significance to our regions welfare and our own futre.”
1. Join with ASEAN to declare our absolute determination to prevent war in our region.
2. The leader of the Opposition should visit Beijing as a circuit breaker and seek to discuss with the Chinese FM a road map out of the impass. This would take an act of political courage and intellect that the present leader simply hasnt got. We need something more than a parish pump hack from the municipality of Leichardt council. Andrews, McGowan or Wong could pull it off.
3. We have to ditch ANZUS. It is obsolete and frankly a hindrance to better relations.
4. Forge a genuine foreign policy and diplomacy in Asia. Singapore should be the model. Heck if Duterte in the Philippines can kick the US bases and Navy out of his country so should we.
5. Reach and sign an agreement not just for FT but for mutual respect and recognitiuon of the peaceful resolution of disputes between the two countries. No more Australian gunboats chugging around Taiwan .
Anything else wont cut the mustard in my humble and completely irrelevant opinion. Would it take some some ticker in the ALP? Have they got it? Probably not.
Well, thank you for laying out a clear and coherent plan. It goes a fair bit further than I am willing to go, but it is certainly a starting point for discussion.
I think Teow Loon Ti was astute in saying China has calculated it doesn’t need Australia, doesn’t like Australia, and is not interested in removing the impasse. I’m afraid we are going to have to wear the pain until China’s attention inevitably turns elsewhere or Chinese consumers put pressure on (unlikely but not impossible). Many countries flourish with minimal trade with China.
Wear the pain. We are on a hiding to nothing. The buffoon in Canberra, after being knocked for six by Microsoft and Tencent (no one in the world has achieved that previously) is now pleading with the PRC to talk. Its humiliating and embarassing. We can become relevant with courage and a bit of dash. Gough had it in spades. Sadly not only do we have the worst PM since the rat Billy Hughes but we have the worst Opposition leader since Fadden. Our problem is lack of leadership not China.
I guess you respected the tanks at Tiananmen Sq as well.
Hi there. Yes the ZTZ-96B, has a firing range of three kilometers and a speed of 80kpm and can go 500 kms before a refill. The tanks roll down Chang’an Avenue at 55.40. Very impressive.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnoaWO3KDIA
Barney can you please identify the “alternate” market at volume and price for Australian iron ore? Please dont suggest domestic steel production. I live in Wollongong. That train left Port Kembla station some time ago.
WE don’t have one yet. You’ve put “alternate” in quotes as though it were a phrase I used. I suspect we will need several smaller markets, and it still won’t be enough. When China inevitably decides it doesn’t want our iron ore any more we will just have to scale back production. That is still a few years off, apparently, and I hope the Government is hard at work.
Barney thanks for the honest reply. So its on a wing and prayer then?
You could put it like that. I hope it’s a bit more positive, given – as I say – that we have a little time and can put some hard work in, but it is surely not certain.
But, as Jerry Roberts and I agreed, the choice is not ours. It’s China’s – and it seems to have made it.
Did you knock domestic steel production out of the discussion immediately because it’s a viable solution and it goes against your defeatist attitude?
No champ. Its because i worked in the Port Kembla steelworks for ten years and was trade union official in the steel industry for another ten. What is your knowledge by the way? Australia has one blast furnace and is protected behind a 150% tariff. The highest in the world. I support the nationalisation of the steel industry as Bluescopee wont be investing in Australian steel anytime soon. We (the unions) fought the fight for a domestic steel industry in the 1980’s and lost. We went throughthe doors of Parliament House. Give me a name champ i might remember you. If domestic steel production is a viable option under Bluescope ownership discuss how an industry can be internationally competative behind a 150% tariff wall with two blast furnaces. Are you seriously suggesting s domestic steel industry would consume the A$100 billion of ore we annually export to China? You do realise China produces 60% of the world’s steel? Are you seriously suggesting we produce 832 million metric tons a year that the PRC produces? We produce 1% of the worlds steel production. And you can drop the ad hominem. Doesnt cut it champ.
No champ. Its because i worked in the Port Kembla steelworks for ten years and was trade union official in the steel industry for another ten. What is your knowledge by the way? Australia has one blast furnace and is protected behind a 150% tariff. The highest in the world. I support the nationalisation of the steel industry as Bluescopee wont be investing in Australian steel anytime soon. We (the unions) fought the fight for a domestic steel industry in the 1980’s and lost. We went throughthe doors of Parliament House. Give me a name champ i might remember you. If domestic steel production is a viable option under Bluescope ownership discuss how an industry can be internationally competative behind a 150% tariff wall with two blast furnaces. Are you seriously suggesting s domestic steel industry would consume the A$100 billion of ore we annually export to China? You do realise China produces 60% of the world’s steel? Are you seriously suggesting we produce 832 million metric tons a year that the PRC produces? We produce 1% of the worlds steel production. And you can drop the ad hominem. Doesnt cut it champ.
As a staunch union supporter, thank you for your efforts. The global takedown of unions was an atrocity, wages, working conditions and industries have all suffered immensely ever since. And having taken part in many industrial actions myself I understand how much it hurts to know you’re in the right, be protected by law but at the 11th hour have everything fall apart because someone’s pockets have been lined.
I’m not in steel production. I’m a consultant for domestic businesses that have been exploited by Chinese trade partners.
I’m not suggesting that we could make up the entire trade deficit from cutting off China, and we don’t have to. What I’m suggesting is that we put the ball back in our court before China cuts our ore exports off regardless. The CCP guides business investments in foreign countries in exactly the same way every time. Invest, inflate demand astronomically and artificially, and then cut it off when the businesses are over-extended. If you look through all significant Chinese investments in Australia over the past 20 years you will find exactly the same cycle. Plastics and packaging, milk solids, clothing, agricultural sectors and of course more recent examples like wine and seafood.
All of the signs are there. China has been stockpiling our ore for nearly a decade so that in the best case scenario they can haggle our prices lower, in the worst case scenario they will encourage the usual over-extension of industry and cut us off overnight.
And no, I don’t think anyone is suggesting that Australia replaces China’s steel exports. That would be a straw man.
If you’r an independent country like Sri lanka, [1]
there’r two paths to choose…
1] Tell big bro to fuck off,
Win-win for Oz./China.
2] follow big bro diktat, bite the hand that feeds you.
Cut your own nose to spite China.
Lose-lose for Oz/China
Why do you choose lose/lose ?
Many say you’r retarded, but more to the point…
You dont really have a choice.
UNlike Sri Lanka, you aint your own boss,
not even an ‘ally’, just a hostage to big bro.
https://caitlinjohnstone.com/2020/10/21/america-has-no-allies-only-hostages/
China never demand servitude from Oz.
Its your big bro,
YOu’d never get outta this self made hole by
standing up to China, barkingup the wrong tree,
Sheesh,
Why do I need to explain this to HIQ whiteys ?
[1]
http://www.lankaweb.com/news/items/2020/10/25/pompeo-will-not-have-his-way-in-sri-lanka/
Late last night someone posted on P&I that the image was reminiscent of a Bill Leak cartoon. I responded, agreeing because I thought so too. But there is a salient difference because the person who created the image is not the person who posted it. The creation of the cartoon is not itself being discussed. The person who created the image is a young Chinese artist, and seen separate to the Chinese official who shared it on Twitter, his motives appear sincere, at least to me. We have a picture of a child clutching a lamb, which is a universally understood representation of innocence, and behind the child a soldier seemingly either about to cut his or her throat, or has already done so. And below we have some text – ‘dont be afraid, we are coming to bring you peace.’ I really have no objection to the image as it stands, except the appearance of the Australian flag and that the soldier is Australian. But why should that make a difference, if the statement being made here is essentially true, which it certainly seems to be. We may resile from it for our own reasons, but for denizens of the global south who see us as handmaidens to US imperial outreach, that would not be a problem.
An excellent read.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-12-03/whats-behind-chinas-bullying-of-australia-soft-target/12943486
Sir,
I appreciate the sensitive tone of your article. I agree with most of what you say. However, I do believe that the Chinese are not that hard to understand. They are like the rest of us with a distinctiveness engendered by their particular history. That is why I am a history buff because I believe it is the key to human and cross-cultural understanding. The recent history of Australia’s dealings with China will give us a clue as how best to engage with them. The loud voices that are heard in Australia are ones with vested interest and those in power who trust them un-expurgatedly and fail to carry out due diligence in their international dealings. They go about dealing with others as if they represent the norm and what they want from others is an entitlement; and when they are rebuffed, they scream that they have been bullied and go crying to international organisations like the WTO. Does Australian politicians’ behaviour vis-a-vis accusations of human rights violation, Covid19, South China Sea, Quad and other alliances reflect the activities of the meek and bullied? They are simply irresponsible.
On the part of China and what they did over the “cartoon” incident does not do them any favours. It was wrong and many responsible Australians are right in saying so. But we must also be mindful that is not used as another political weapon. I am no expert on China but just a very keen observer. Having said that, I would think that their sensitivity has much to do with the humiliation that they suffered at the hands of “foreigners” in the early twentieth century. Consequently, to put it in an indelicate manner, “they suffer from a chip on the shoulder” and are thus very touchy on certain specific matters. One good example is when Malcolm Turnbull said Australians will “stand up” like the Chinese. That call to the Chinese people to “stand up” is underpinned by years of suffering, abuse (e.g. Nanking murders), humiliation and sacrifice. The phrase is even enshrined in their national anthem. To trivialise that in casual political conversation is the ultimate in insult. There has been callous talk about Han Chinese domination and the killing of minority cultures, no cognisance was taken of the fact that communism itself killed off much of all Chinese cultures. Mao like Marx said that religion was the opiate of the masses. If you really want to know what Chinese culture was about before communism read Pearl S. Buck and compare that with what the so called experts say about Han culture. They haven’t got a clue. The present Chinese government embraced capitalism and has allowed open practice of religion under the watchful eye of the government. That is better than no religion. No mention whatsoever was made of the improvements in housing and living standards of all Chinese people regardless of Han-ness. If the West were so blameless in regard to what they label as “ethnocide”, what has happened to native American culture? Is Australia not agonising about the conflicts between bringing indigenous Australians into life in the mainstream and the inevitable destruction of their native cultures? These are very difficult problems and the least others need is for someone who has the same problems to make prescriptions for others to follow when they themselves have no solutions.
Without further annoying others with a long-winded homilies, I will say with certainty that the Chinese are not that hard to understand.
Sincerely,
Teow Loon Ti
“On the part of China and what they did over the “cartoon” incident does not do them any favours. It was wrong and many responsible Australians are right in saying so.”
I think you still are looking at everything from the Western perspective despite some knowledge of China’s history. How is posting that satire “wrong”, not even Hitler demanded apology from Picasso for painting Guernica.
China is doing this to rip off the hypocritical mask of the West. It’s an attack on West’s soft power for all of non-Western world to see which is what prompted the huge reaction while completely ignoring the horrors of human tragedy. Is China doing it for political gains, of course! It’s but a small taste of what China has been subjected to for years under Western MSM.
In the meantime, UK is passing laws to make sure this kind of embarrassment don’t get exposed and US is busy sanctioning international court judges to make sure nobody even asks these questions.
There is a practice in some eastern religions for a spiritual teacher to occasionally box the ears of a student who has lost focus, and while I am not suggesting the actions of the Chinese official is directly analogous to that of the aforementioned spiritual teacher, there are certainly some points of similarity. Presently diplomatic exchanges continue between China and Australia, but these exchanges are likely measured and can be ignored, and certainly are being ignored, if not by the government, then by the local media and political commentators who are hostile to China. Posting this image is a slap in the face, but it isnt done to gratuitously offend, it is likely done to wake people up to certain realities, particularly the hypocrisy of our position, where we indulge in relentless and often false accusations against China, pointing fingers at specks or motes in Chinese eyes while ignoring the planks in our own.
Sir,
I wrote a response to your comment but forgot to send it. What I meant to say is that I respect your point of view. Please allow me to point out that the Guernica was painted before WWII. It was in fact pointed at the Spanish Civil War. It is one of my favourite paintings although I have not seen the original; only saw, from a distance, the apartment where my guide told me Picasso painted the Guernica. I love the Guernica because I am against all kinds of wars except and only that in defence of home and country. I do not think that preemptive wars are justifiable. Wars are the games of idiots played out at the expense of the innocent – including the hapless soldiers that are sent to fight other people’s wars.
Sincerely,
Teow Loon Ti
I think the real problem with the “cartoon” is not that it was published. Nothing particularly wrong with that. The fundamental problem is that it was published under the auspices of a national government. As I see it, this is definitely NOT the role of a government. I would be very surprised if the Chinese government doesn’t know this.
Your reply warrants a reply of history. Cartoons have been used by the Australian government for political purposes. The late and great trade union leader Ted Roach was imprisoned by Justice Dunphy in 1951 for 38 weeks for publishing a cartoon in the Maritime Worker newspaper which was critical of Dunphy’s ruling on wharfies wages. Ted Roach was the leader of the Delfram dispute in Port Kembla in 1938 that banned iron exports to Japan in protest at the invasion of China by Japan and specifically the Rape of Nanking. Ted had tears in his eyes when he told me “But the Chinese never forgot us”. Whilst he was imprisoned in Long Bay, Chinese Australians smuggled in copies of the communist paper which Roach was banned from reading in jail, within copies of Mandarin language newspapers. These newspapers were used to wrap food which was donated to Ted by the Chinese community every week whilst he was imprisoned. The screws couldn’t read Mandarin and never bothered to check. It is impossible to really express my feeling and that of many of us down here in Wollongong that the unity of the Australian working class and the Australian Chinese community is being daily trashed by the racist clowns in Canberra. They never forgot us. And we also should never foget them. These difficult days will pass.
Paul, I can’t see in you response any indication that the government used any cartoons, although the Maritime Union apparently did.
To make it perfectly clear: I am not at all against cartoons and lampooning, but it should not be an activity that a government (any government) should perform. Governments should stick to facts.
The Menzies government used a harmless cartoon to jail a trade union official? Governments use and exploit images all the time. But agreed governments should stick to the facts. The image by Fu Yu was entirely factually based.
Your conflating two seperate issues, one the gov using a cartoon (that it wasn’t involved in producing) to jail a trade union offical (as you assert) and the recent CCP twit, which the CCP “owns”.
Please direct me to the section of Brereton’s report where a 4 yr old is murdered.
I’m sure you’d fit in well with the CCP, when they own us I guess you’ll be one of the P&I CCP Commissars.
We have started a fight with the world’s most formidable defensive culture, which has never heard of the Marquess of Queensberry.
We are so unquestioning of our own values, and so ignorant and uncaring about the historical contingencies that shaped them, that we have the arrogance to call them “human rights”.
Timely Cavan, a voice of reason.
I too know little of China, the land of Sun Tzu. I have however read The Art of War. Sun Tzu’s quote “If ignorant of both your enemy and yourself, you are sure to be defeated in every battle” seems particularly relevant here.
Australia seems to have very little self awareness of how our own actions/non-actions impact on how we are viewed in the world. Our leaders love to moralise about human rights etc, but involve us in unnecessary and in some instances illegal wars. We castigate certain nations over human rights abuses but ignore those of our allies. For example we hear day in and day out about the treatment of Uighurs and Hong Kong protesters, yet there is no criticism of prisons (modern slave labour camps) in the United States nor of the very violent response of the French police against the Yellow Vest protestors; both these examples seem to be at least on a par with those of China’s authorities if not worse.
And as you have highlighted, as a country we have a poor understanding of Chinese culture and history.
ScoMo’s response to this tweet has no doubt played right into the hands of the Chinese. It is hard to see how there is going to be any negative impact on China from this episode. In contrast our countries leadership is working itself up into a frenzy. It is difficult to see how good policy/decisions will be made in this sort of environment.
“It is hard to see how there is going to be any negative impact on China from this episode.”
Tell that to the cheer squad at FairFax. “China is humiliating Australia as an example to others – but the bullying won’t last, Australia should be confident that China will realise its actions damage its international reputation.”
From Professor Brady no less. From the outstanding institution of Canterbury University NZ. A woman who claimed to have a series of break ins at her office. NZ coppers could find no culprit. She recently produced a paper which drew from the University of Auckland (UA) and Te Herenga Waka-Victoria University of Wellington formal complaints to the University of Canterbury, for work that was “inflammatory, inaccurate and unprofessional”,”…manifest errors of fact and misleading inferences…” and “… unsubstantiated assertions and outright falsehoods constitute a serious breach in accepted standards of scholarship.” Canterbury is investigating. Costello’s clown car at Fairfax rolls on. Meanwhile our PM’s twitter opponent Fu Yu is working on another tweet. We are an international laughing stock.
Does not surprise me at all the sort of swamp creatures you uncover in MSM these days. While a cut above Adrian Zenz, still a nice little puppet mouth piece for the establishment.
Agreed Cameron and thank you.
I have this mental image of ScoMo (and others) jumping up and down in a vain effort to somehow
influence the outcome of events. A idle glance in their direction indicates there’s something happening
but a closer inspection reveals the impotence of the ant – railing at the elephant’s shadow.
Sun Tzu indeed. The image I have of our PM is of a puppet on a string, with a sign attached saying, “Pull me, watch me jerk.” Even Trump has had a go, and he’s usually the one being played by the dictators.
But I would add one more name to the list of nations fast developing an unenviable reputation for human rights abuses to which the present government demonstrates an amazing lack of concern – Australia.
All the Chinese diplomat (and ‘artist’) needed to include in his cartoon, were the words uttered by the soldier in the video we have all seen so many times, which shows an unarmed Afghan lying in a field. “Should I drop the —–?”, followed by a gunshot. There a moments when silence would be more appropriate.
Comment deleted by author.
Can’t come soon enough for me…I love fried rice.
Not sure how good the quality is in the gulag. I think you are just a little too independent to flourish under a Chinese regime.
I can behave myself if I try.
“We started it with our ill-advised attempt to please Donald Trump by calling for an investigation into the origin of the COVID virus – something that was already known.”
Just expanding on that. What US wanted was a Iraqi WMD style kind of “investigation” with access to everything, a political witch hunt which China won’t agree to but Scomo was jumping up and down like a clown. China is okay with an scientific based approach. After all do you sue your neighbour for giving you the flu?
What did happen was WHO started 2 investigations. One to the response to COVID and one to the origin. China took part in both. You know who refused? US as it completely exited out of WHO. I mean an independent investigation into US’s COVID response… imagine that.
https://edition.cnn.com/2020/05/19/china/wha-pandemic-inquiry-resolution-vote-intl/index.html
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-03165-9
And no China didn’t cover up the pandemic. WHO was notified on 31st of December and it was all over Chinese news by then. So what’s Scomo’s point other than poking China in the eye for no good reason?
https://www.who.int/csr/don/05-january-2020-pneumonia-of-unkown-cause-china/en/
The problem is not only Australia doesn’t understand China but Australia doesn’t understand itself and its place in the world nor doesn’t it see that a civilisation war is brewing. It has a conflicted geographical location vs its cultural heritage.
I would argue Australia also does not have a completely independent foreign policy as you really can’t have one if you rely on someone else for your security and defence so it’s really between a rock and a hard place. You need careful diplomacy, something Scomo is not doing at all so what does he expect China’s response to be exactly?
China is setting up its own rules, Australia’s behaviour is not acceptable to China and China is making an example of it. If you don’t like it, don’t trade with China, plenty of other people who will. Otherwise, you need to follow China’s rules, not the old Western colonial rules established post WWII setup to benefit the US (the same rules are tilting towards China’s favour which is why Trump wants to tear it up). That’s the megatrend for the next 10-20 years.
Insightful! I think it is ‘the megatrend for the next 10-20 years’ that scares the bejesus out of many Australians. Especially given the other point you mentioned- conflicted geographical location vs its cultural heritage. Both of these contribute to easy exploitation by the right, or even the lunatic right, as represented by Eric Abetz, et al. The chances are we will continue to fight America’s imperial wars, and that may include a mega war against China. Best not to be around when that happens!
What goes unreported is its not like China planned this all along but when it tried to get a voice in ADB (Asian Development Bank), World Bank, IMF and other “international” organisations, she was promptly refused, heck she was even banned from the International Space Station. It’s then China realised the so called “international” is just euphemism for old Western colonial power and she’s just a peasant, an outsider!
Well China just went f. it, and embarked on a process of creating a whole new system, AIIB, SCO, B&R, RCEP (that one was more opportunistic), you name it. It’s all piecing together.
“Australian politicians and media have responded predictably with domestically oriented hysteria”
Very true. Scotty from marketing views everything through his prism of marketing to the domestic masses, and if his current stances on China, domestically at least, appeal to those who support the Murdoch and Costello media monopolies, then his opinion polls will continue to ride high, thus reinforcing his intransigence.
However, he appeared to moderate his speech to a British think tank a few days ago, earning the praise of China. Of course, it WAS to an overseas organisation, and was totally ignored in Australia by the MSM except for the AFR, the ABC and other assorted independent news outlets, thus ensuring that the readers of such rags such as the Courier mail and the Herald Sun continue to remain ignorant, whilst cheering Scotty on, and continuing to buy chinese made goods.
..I DIDN’T DO IT!..!
The devil danced on anzac day
To show me what’s important
It’s rank reactionary rhetoric
On confected Chinese twitter shit
And not the real and murderous bits
Of Captain Hicks’ lunatics:
I know not what other goodies
Your paper bag holds,
I bet there are other lollies
That would please this soul.
Sincerely,
Teow loon Ti
..Thinking In Tongues..
The quicksand effect Of alphabet soup
If coursed last will astound and then drown you
That analogue broth brews there in the trough
For the terms of the interminable
Sentence:
Albeit Shemetic
If aeiou is phonetic
Then gods name is mighty
Unpronounceable:
If you wish play this shtick this
Interlocutory quiz
And curious sink where the silence is coming
Which will make you a very bad listener:
In edit: You’re right; I’ll be a dialectic diabetic if it kills me. ;-p
Morrison is carrying a small stick with a big mouth. And we all know what happened to those mouthy kids who couldnt fight back in the day. Its going to be a very painful experience for a lot of Australians for the next decade. But Peter Hartcher reckons that Morrison is winning the twitter war against Fu Yu. Heaven help us.